Todd Radom on creating team logos for the BIG3 Basketball League

Brian Bosché:
Hey everyone. Welcome to the creativeBTS Podcast. Today, I'm so excited to introduce Todd Radom, a renowned sports designer. He has designed for the Super Bowl, NBA All-Star Games, Basketball Hall of Fame, Washington Nationals, Los Angeles Angels. I grew up in Southern California, so the Angels are my baseball team, and the BIG3. So, Todd, thank you so much for coming. I'm really excited to chat with you.

Todd Radom:
Brian, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity, and it's great to be with you.

Brian Bosché:
So, I wanted to kick off, you have been working for yourself, designing for sports for the last 30 plus years on sports across different teams across different leagues. Have you broken into the NHL yet? I saw that in one of the articles.

Todd Radom:
I had done some work with the NHL.

Brian Bosché:
You got there good.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's been a long and winding road, and a little bit of everything along the way for sure.

Brian Bosché:
So, would love for you to kind of briefly introduce yourself professionally. I know it's a long list, but we'd love to give the audience a little sense of your background.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, thank you. So, like you said, I am a sports design veteran. I always say I was designing for sports before there really was such a thing. Of course, now, the thing has expanded, but my background started out in book publishing. I graduated the School of Visual Arts in New York City. I should say I come from a family of artists. I'm a fourth generation working artist. Additionally, I have a brother who is a photographer. I have a cousin who is a jazz drummer. His parents consisted of an actress and a draftsman/fine artist. So, it's deep in the DNA here. So, I graduated School of Visual Arts.

Todd Radom:
I worked in book publishing. I designed for 1,000 book covers, and book covers are great pieces of design. They incorporate a little bit of everything. They're like posters, right? You've got a photography, illustration or photography. You're conveying a commercial message. But all the time, dating back to when I was a kid with this DNA coursing through me, I've always been fascinated by the visual culture of sports, particularly professional sports. Even more focused, baseball was really my first thing. So, I've been looking at this for all of these years. I've had some wonderful opportunities over the last 30 years to really roll my sleeves up and impart my look into a number of pretty exciting projects.

Brian Bosché:
What attracted you to baseball originally?

Todd Radom:
I don't know, Brian. That's a good question. I think for some reason or another, I mean, I grew up going to ball games with my dad in New York area, Mets games, Yankee Stadium, this kind of thing. I always say baseball, as a sport whatever we think of it, it's just always there in the background. I mean, it's a long, long season. This of course is a different kind of year. But in a normal world, it starts in February with spring training and it hangs around until early November. So, it is just always there. It's in the background of summer, so I think it was just sort of ubiquitous to me.

Todd Radom:
Baseball is, I always say a game that lends itself to introspection. There's not a whole lot of movement on the field compared to some other games, right? So, you can really focus on the logos, and the graphics, and the uniforms in a way that you might not for other sports.

Brian Bosché:
For a lot of my other friends that are sports designers, it's one of the hardest design challenges to take on, because if you're launching a new logo or new brand for major brand, commercial brand, people don't like it, "Okay, that's not great," move on, maybe still purchase it. But if someone, which it seems like they often do, their team's logo changes or their team's brand changes, they just rail on it and they can really go after the designers and the team. So, what do you see some of the challenges or some of the things that come up when you actually have to take on these sports design challenges?

Todd Radom:
We're creative people and as creative people, we have to have thick skins, right? Thick skins. Having gone to art school, you sit there, and you sit in a circle and watch people rip your work to shreds in what's called a critique, and critique, of course, contains the basis for the word criticism. So, we have to take criticism. I've always been mindful of the fact that there is no right or wrong, it is not black or white. There are various ways to solve a problem. Furthermore, as probably everybody listening to this can understand and appreciate, it's always a collaborative process, right?

Todd Radom:
Now, when it comes to sports, the level of scrutiny and the level of interest and passion, I would say are unlike any other consumer brand, right? You all might have an affinity for a particular beverage or some consumer service or whatever it may be, but chances are you're not going to get the logo of that company tattooed on you. Sports fans do it all the time. Definitely, part of the challenge of designing for sports is the fact that the work has to get activated across so many different platforms and in so many different sizes, right? Big, small, it has to move. It's got to look-

Brian Bosché:
Different mediums.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, different mediums.

Brian Bosché:
Print ads, tickets, all over the place, digital.

Todd Radom:
Yeah. Twenty years ago, we used to joke that what's the worst-case scenario for a logo for a team? What does it look like in black and white on a cover sheet of a fax, right? Of course, now, things get to be the size of an avatar and with high def technology, literally you're looking at scoreboards with stuff moving 10 stories high. So, yeah, the challenges and the rewards are multiple. It's great to work on something that people really care about, whether they hate it or love it.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, I think a lot of designers get used to the critiques, but being critiqued by an entire city or region, it's another level of thick skin that you have to develop.

Todd Radom:
It's true, but when people do like it, I guess the psychological rewards are that much greater, right?

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We discussed a little bit before we started recording that you've worked primarily on your own for the last 30 years. You typically don't outsource any of the design work. You kind of do it from start to finish on your own. So, what's kind of been your philosophy on kind of taking on all these projects by yourself?

Todd Radom:
Yeah, I mean, I have always been a self-starter with regard to work for my entire life. So, when I was working on staff and book publishing all those years ago, I was doing freelance on the side. It wasn't forbidden, and I was hustling. I mean, I had a lot of work from a lot of different types of clients, other book publishers, ad agencies. At that time, I was doing a lot of hand lettering, like liberal hand lettering before computerization was a thing. So, I always worked well by myself. I've collaborated well with people. I have a good nose for business, I think. I mean, certainly the solitary experience is not for everybody and it's not great at all times, but that does ebb and flow. It's worked for me for all these years.

Todd Radom:
Most importantly, Brian, I think, it's allowed me to have some control over my life and my schedule. I'm a very structured kind of guy. I'm not that kind of person, I never have been, who's going to just burn it out and go all night, because I'm a big believer in the eight hours of sleep, eight hours of work, eight hours of the something else that has nothing to do with your work. So, it's worked pretty well for me, and maybe I'm a bit of a control freak. I don't know about that.

Brian Bosché:
Well, I love this structure. I just read Range by David Epstein. Have you read that yet?

Todd Radom:
I have not read it, but I know it.

Brian Bosché:
One of the main points is that to excel in any field, you have to borrow from others. You need to create these analogies into other fields, into other interests. So, designing for 12 hours a day, you may not get the experience and the things that actually can make you excel even better and design. So, at Slope, when we were startup for five years, it's very tempting to just dive in those 10, 15 hours a day to get things done. But having the more balance, having longevity, you've done this for 30 years on your own, sounds like that's how you get there.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, I think to some extent, I'll get a job and I kind of feel like I am the pilot on a giant 777, I get in a cockpit, I have this sense of competence. I know how to take off and land. The middle part is sometimes a mystery, and maybe we'll do a little detour. Hopefully, you don't have to land, but understanding the process and being comfortable with it is part of having done this for so many years. I would say also, I'm a writer and a published author as well. I've got a second book coming out.

Brian Bosché:
Oh, wow. So, Winning Ugly was the first one.

Todd Radom:
Winning Ugly was the first. I have written a book called Fabric of the Game with my buddy, Chris Creamer from SportsLogos.net. We're like a dynamic duo.

Brian Bosché:
Nice.

Todd Radom:
We have written this book. It's about the stories behind the looks and the names of every NHL team ever. I mean, this is 75,000 words, 40 of my illustrations. So, half the words are mine. I put it together in InDesign. So, I found that writing is very different from designing, just in terms of how the thing starts, how the plane takes off, how it lands. It's good to get out of our comfort zones and try a little something different sometimes, but I love writing. I always say that writing makes me a better designer and brand consultant, and being a visual person makes me a better writer. So, multiple tools.

Brian Bosché:
So, it's covering the NHL, right?

Todd Radom:
Yup, exactly.

Brian Bosché:
So, I'm in Seattle, we're launching our new NHL team. One of my best friends from college, Kyle Boyd, is Director of Community there. I've been bugging him to tell me their new name for months and he won't do it. But we won the Stanley Cup with the Metropolitans, right?

Todd Radom:
Yes, 100 years ago.

Brian Bosché:
A hundred years ago? We still have like the plaque on the old rink downtown here that I walk by every now and then.

Todd Radom:
Yeah. So, there was an announcement yesterday by the team that they will not be unveiling the name or the colors until "at least this fall". So, for selfish purposes, Brian, of our book, we have to have Seattle in there. We're waiting, the things about to be released to the printer. We have a chapter which you will see when it comes out. We have discussed the granting of the NHL team and a little bit of history of those Seattle Metropolitans who did win the Stanley Cup back in couldn't be 100 years ago.

Brian Bosché:
Yes, we did.

Todd Radom:
Pandemic days, then and now.

Brian Bosché:
So, who would you vote for? You like the Kraken, the Sockeyes, bringing back the Metropolitans.

Todd Radom:
Kraken and Sockeyes both work really well. You do worry about, of course, on our end of things and you know this because of what you do, securing trademarks. Metropolitan's not so much. The Mets exist. They're a baseball team here in New York. The history is there. They had these wonderfully expressive Christmas-like, red and green barber pole jerseys. Bring those back at some point in time but start from scratch. It's a newly reprised-

Brian Bosché:
New brands.

Todd Radom:
Yup. So, either of those names would work for me, I would applaud you. How about you?

Brian Bosché:
I think I like the Sockeyes. I like the alliteration. I like Seattle's SuperSonics, Seattle Seahawks, Seattle Sounders, Seattle Sockeyes. It just kind of flows. I really like the European model where Barcelona will have every team under the same brand, which not as much creativity, because they often borrow from each other's brands, but I like the kind of unified city and team together.

Todd Radom:
Yeah. You neglected to say one thing, Kraken does not end in an S. Some people, not necessarily me, are maniacal about are they the Red Sox? [inaudible 00:12:28].

Brian Bosché:
The Kraken?

Todd Radom:
Yes, the Kraken. Where does the possessive apostrophe go?

Brian Bosché:
Oh, that's a great... Yeah, this could be a whole podcast on NHS Seattle name.

Todd Radom:
If it does come out, we can [crosstalk 00:12:43] apostrophes and by then, hopefully we'll have a name.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Well, at Dartmouth, we would throw tennis balls on the ice during Princeton games. I lived in Detroit where I met my wife, and we throw the octopus on during Red Wings games. So, I want to throw some Sockeyes on there. I think that flows pretty well.

Todd Radom:
I place market giant fish flying all over the place. There's tradition, totally.

Brian Bosché:
Yup, exactly. All right, so you have a lot of different lessons and wisdom that you can impart. On creativeBTS, I like to go into specific case studies to actually have lessons you can pull out of a specific experience and not general. So, today, we're going to cover the BIG3. I guess it was the branding project, design project, what would you call it?

Todd Radom:
Anything visual.

Brian Bosché:
Just the visual identity of the BIG3.

Todd Radom:
In every conceivable sense. We could talk about specifics here but in collaboration with my creative director, Ice Cube, in all seriousness-

Brian Bosché:
Amazing, that's literally it.

Todd Radom:
... anything visual, not having to do with broadcast or in arena. But I have designed the court, the visual identities for every one of the teams including their uniforms, a suite of logos. I decided the trophy signage and have consulted on a bunch of stuff within it. Basically, anything visual runs through me.

Brian Bosché:
So, give us the quick pitch on BIG3 for those who don't know about the league.

Todd Radom:
So BIG3 is a professional 3-on-3 basketball league. The first season was back in 2017. This was supposed to be the fourth season. Of course, given the current circumstances, the season has been canceled. It's a summer league, short season, 10 games give or take in the course of the whole thing. It is a traveling league. It's kind of a carnival. It goes from city to city. They play in NBA arenas. The past year, it was broadcast on CBS, first two years broadcast on Fox. It's got a big platform.

Todd Radom:
Primarily, players are ex-NBA players. Big brand names, okay, guys with devoted followings almost. So, year one wasn't so artistic, but Allen Iverson was the big name attached to that. So, that's BIG3. It's got a lot of sizzle. The entertainment value is great. It really is a professional league, it's not like the NBA. Interestingly, Brian, from a presentation perspective, it's a half a quart. So, when you think about the optics of broadcasting a game and being in an arena that features a half a court, the concentration of bodies moving around and the focus on things is quite a different thing than it would be for a regulation 5-on-5 game.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I've been a fan since it launched. I wanted to go last year for my birthday but couldn't make the travel work. I'm a 3-Headed Monsters fan, Gary Payton is the coach.

Todd Radom:
Good, great guy.

Brian Bosché:
Have to represent the Sonics, bring them back. You said it's a real league, it is a real league. It's covered on ESPN. You see the highlights all over social media. When Joe Johnson is hitting the four pointers to win the championship, when Will Bynum... He did a move that I think still see on gifs all the time. I don't even know what... The shammgod hit.

Todd Radom:
Broke ankles right there.

Brian Bosché:
It was a fake shammgod, it was unbelievable. So, this is a legit league.

Todd Radom:
[crosstalk 00:16:13].

Brian Bosché:
It seems like they were going after originally kind of people a little bit past their prime. I think 28 was the age restriction, 27 when it first started.

Todd Radom:
I mean it has evolved, where this season, it was going to be brought down to 27. You were going to see-

Brian Bosché:
They had to bring it down.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, younger guys, guys from Europe, less household names. I think the quality of basketball really did improve over the first couple of years, vastly improved from year one. It's kind of a rough league. None of these fouls for hand checking, none of this. I've been lucky because when I do attend the games, I am right there courtside.

Brian Bosché:
Oh, wow.

Todd Radom:
I hear great coach Gary Payton.

Brian Bosché:
He's brutal.

Todd Radom:
I literally sat about two feet behind the bench during a game in Chicago during year one, and I heard him light it up. So, yeah, I mean, it's got some personality and celebrity sizzle. You'll see people in the stance. LL Cool J's involved in the league. He's there pretty much every week. It's a lot of fun. It's [inaudible 00:17:19] game.

Brian Bosché:
So how did you get hooked up with the BIG3? How did this even start? I mean, you're very well known in the industry, but how did Ice Cube go, "I want to work with Todd"?

Todd Radom:
I got a call from one of his representatives or an email back in late summer of 2017. Honestly, Brian, I should put that together, but I think they Google. They dug around, found somebody who might be a good match. A conversation started out, like "Where do we start?" Cube, people that he deals with, they're entertainment people, which is very different from being sports people, right? So, you start a professional league. They know all the ins and outs of what it's like to book an NBA arena, and how it was, split the proceeds, and deal with the insurance, and all that other stuff, contract.

Todd Radom:
But starting a league, this is such an unprecedented league, short amount of time with a very lean organization. So, they called me. We had preliminary discussions. I get this email, which says, "This is Cube." He talked about how he envisioned this working. He and I had a very long conversation before diving in, because I was a little honestly apprehensive. We always worry about and I'm sure you talk about this on the podcast on a regular basis. What is the process? What is the approval process? How do you get the plane from the gate to the gates, right?

Todd Radom:
I was, like I said, a little leery of potentially undisciplined process, but boy, it worked out. It really is. Just he and I, he will show the work around to stakeholders, certainly. But he is my creative director and I'm doing all the creatives. So, worked out surprisingly well.

Brian Bosché:
So, for these type of deals, how do you actually close it? We started out as a creative agency. So, I've done so many RFPs and pitches. Yeah. What do you think actually secure the deals like, "All right, Todd's going to run the visual identity of BIG3"? What kind of tips it over the edge?

Todd Radom:
I think there were a couple of things. I think it's a really good question. So, here we are. I'm working on the league logo and the court itself. I'll say early November. They're going to have a press conference in middle of January to launch the thing, and the league is going to launch in late June. So, you think about that runway. At a certain point, decisions are made for us, and you either take hands and you dive into the pool together or it's not going to happen. I think comfort level, we ramped it up slowly with a couple of specific assets within this whole thing. When it came time to discussing individual teams and how to go about those, we started moving. The wheels were moving and the-

Brian Bosché:
Got it.

Todd Radom:
... terms were comfortable. We worked out all of everything, the timing, the money, the process, how it all went down. Once things started to snowball, I mean, the thing was moving at supersonic speed.

Brian Bosché:
Don't hit me with the supersonic.

Todd Radom:
Sorry.

Brian Bosché:
So, it's like building the trust, it's maybe smaller deliverables. And then once you kind of establish that trust, really getting the rest of those deliverables moving. You got to try out.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, that's it. I think that there came a point in the process pretty early on. It was comfortable. We understood mutually how this is going to work. The trust that you just referenced is so important, so important with any project. But when you think about a project of these proportions where you need to shoot once, shoot straight, get it absolutely right, and hit the target. I mean it was absolutely necessary to pick up speed and to stay together.

Todd Radom:
Furthermore, they came a time in the process that Adidas got involved with the project ultimately. They had sort of oversight, but the design still resides with me in a good partnership. I had to get uniforms manufactured, right? I'm a sports guy, I know where I could get uniforms. We had, like I said, a press conference in New York City, middle of January 2017. I think was January 11th. In anticipation of that, I was tasked with getting a series of jerseys.

Brian Bosché:
Wow, full service.

Todd Radom:
Customized, so that these guys are going to hold it up at this thing and they had to look legit and totally right. This took place pretty much over the Christmas Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays. You're not going to be able to outsource that overseas. It's got to be done domestically. I know somebody who could do it domestically, killed the project. They wound up making the uniform. So, part of it is tribal knowledge and knowing the space. Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
So, there hasn't been a lot of sports they've launched in the last year, unfortunately, a really bad time. I had Tyler Brosious on from the XFL, and he was talking about launching that new brand. It's really important to stand out and be unique as you try to compete against these major sports leagues. So, what was kind of the vision to actually be unique and stand out as BIG3 as a brand and then get people excited about a new league?

Todd Radom:
It's interesting, there's sort of this dual situation that we have. On the one hand, we want to stand out. I am dealing with people who are entertainment people. If anybody given his 30-year track record of being in entertainment, and then includes film and stuff like that, understands what things should look like and how to put on a presentation, it's Ice Cube. Let me step away for one second and just mentioned something that I think is really important in the process. When Cube was a young man, before NWA hit big, he went to college for one year in Phoenix, Arizona to study architectural drafting.

Brian Bosché:
I don't expect that.

Todd Radom:
So, he and I will talk about things and we can discuss things like negative space and scale and how things roll out. So, anyway, I think it's an important aspect of this whole.

Brian Bosché:
Important when you say he was the creative director.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, no, that's true.

Todd Radom:
Kind of like flipping thing, it's true. So, anyway, we, I think, determined pretty early on that we had this dual thing going on. We didn't want to look outlandish or cheesy or Johnny-come-lately. So, our look really revolves around color. To me, when it comes to sports, color is everything. We are all parts of tribes. You talk about your Seattle teams, right? If you're a Mariners fan-

Brian Bosché:
Green?

Todd Radom:
Yeah, it's Northwest green, right, and maybe blue. It's kind of a unique combination, then with that silver accent. On the case of BIG3, I know you and I talked about it offline. There are no cities attached to these teams, they travel from place to place. So, how do you impart a sense of partisanship given that situation? Color, and also, we are a league that is built for again this very small footprint on a national scale with great production values. So, the lighting and everything had to be conducive to what the colors of uniforms look like and the visual identities.

Todd Radom:
Now, another part of that is we want to look... I don't know, a lot of my design is rooted in tradition without being stodgy. Some of the best compliments I've ever got have revolved around the fact that my work is again something that's rooted in the past but stepped up into the current and the future. So, we look legit, but we've got some different kinds of looks. But we look like a real professional outfit.

Brian Bosché:
It's classic, because I imagine that like you said, you're being broadcast on TV. So, you need the TV audience. You need the fans to buy in, but then you also need the players. If you're going to attract players to come in, who are largely from the NBA, if not all from the NBA. I saw they had open tryouts. So, I've been training for that for maybe next year, but most are from the NBA. They're used to a traditional NBA brands and logos. You see the Celtics logos. The Nuggets are a little bit newer, but you see the old school logos are important and make you feel like you're part of this established history. If you go to a BIG3 where it's kind of this kitschy, like you said, the come-lately logos, I imagine that they might not buy in as much or be as excited to get into the league.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, we wanted a polished professional look. Honestly, Brian, some of my favorite interactions are with players, talking to them about how they like the colors. Because I'll always check with the equipment guy for instance, making sure that the uniforms fit well, that they're manufactured correctly, that they're not patched that there's nothing... They deserve to be comfortable.

Brian Bosché:
They have to wear it.

Todd Radom:
They should like the looks. Some of those interactions about this are fun. I'll also say, if you're old school NBA guy, our commissioner's Clyde Drexler. He's a terrific gentleman, great, great guy. Love my conversations with him and he totally gets it. So, yeah, all the buy-in is important. It goes without talking about retail sales or any of the stuff that we usually ascribe to licensing for sports and the selling of it. It starts with the fact that we get form and function, and then we extrapolate from there.

Brian Bosché:
Well, I read that you did something very clever, very smart, where you said, "AI, Allen Iverson was the kind of premier player in that first league." I read that you're like, "How do we get this guy interested in?" You made the Georgetown colors for his team, right?

Todd Radom:
Yeah. I mean, it wasn't just me. I mean, Cube talked about it too. I was like, "Okay, the colors for that particular team are navy and orange with a little bit of a warm gray," right? I always think just to really geek it down for the designers here, I generally design in black and white, in grayscale, 100% black, 65% black, 30% black. So, then you start to move those along. So, it was actually a great color combination. Gray is not always the most exciting of colors when it rises to the floor, but this is a little bit of a different one. There's a good story attached to it without the tail wagging the dog, which sometimes happens.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Well, I want to go into the jersey design and I'm going to read off some of the team names. This is a 3-on-3 leagues, so there's a lot of threes. 3's Company, 3-Headed Monsters, Killer 3's, the Ball Hogs, Ghost Ballers, Power, Trilogy, Tri-State, Triplets, Aliens. Is that all? Are there anymore?

Todd Radom:
Bivouac is the last one, B-I-V-O-U-A-C. So, we'll start with that one, and then I'm going to [inaudible 00:28:42]. Bivouac is an army of ants.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. Okay. Yeah, I see that now.

Todd Radom:
Sounds very French, but...

Brian Bosché:
Yes. So, I'm reading that list and if I was trying to design these, that would terrify me because what am I going to go off on the Power? There's no city, it's called the Power.

Todd Radom:
Exactly.

Brian Bosché:
Take us through kind of your initial brainstorming process or how did you actually piece these together?

Todd Radom:
Yeah, I mean, some of them are you step up to the plate to mix sports metaphors and see a big fat 90-mile an hour fastball coming right at you with no... I mean, 3-Headed Monsters, a three-headed monster is a three-headed monster. So, in my case, creating an aura about it, typographically What dos the typography look like? What do the colors look like? How do you carve that all out and make it into word marks and all that stuff? So, that's kind of an easy thing. I'll throw a couple around, Killer 3's, kind of think Wu-Tang Clan Killa Beez, right? Killer 3's, they have to be black and gold. There's no question about it, right?

Todd Radom:
For something like Power, I explored a series of things. I explored a clenched fist, lightning bolts, things like that. Initially, it defaulted to a typographic solution with kind of a Buzzsaw around it, and the typography carries the day. You can apply all kinds of color. I mean in that case, it's sort of an electric palette, so that's fine. Ball Hogs, well, it had to be a hog with attitude, hogging a ball, right?

Todd Radom:
In the case the Ball Hog, there's your Seattle SuperSonics color palette, which was waiting to be taken. I will say also, all of these colors because of the short one, runway two, these are all battle tested. These are all colors that just for the most part, but me going down to the factory and tweaking... Bivouac, for instance, is brown, gold, and a very hot red, right? So, get down there, did all these tests, got the colors just right. What are some of the other names that are weird? I mean 3's.

Brian Bosché:
Did you do these one by one?

Todd Radom:
We were doing them in groups of two a week at a time, which was astounding. Because in the world of sports design, it's a year and a half process. We don't have to answer to a lot of stakeholders in this case, but you do have to get it right and it had to be bulletproof.

Brian Bosché:
Two a week? That was the process?

Todd Radom:
Yeah. Brian, let me tell you. After that first volley of eight teams was done, I remember just my wife and I go into Miami Beach for about four days and sitting by a pool in South Beach and drinking cold drinks and watching my brains like get back. [inaudible 00:31:36] a marathon, summer season.

Brian Bosché:
This is like six months, one year, one and a half. I mean, that's a typical. I know, I just did an interview with Brian Gundell on the Sun Belt Conference rebranded. That was 18 months to get that through for college conference. So, were you getting them approved every week, or was it just like the initial concepts you'd send over?

Todd Radom:
So, imagine working on two at a time and coming up with first round of sketches, really tight PDFs, maybe six or eight type concepts and saying, "Okay, here's what we're talking about." The usual navigating that revision process and chopping that down into three or four sets of revisions, simultaneously working on one other team, and just go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. I can't tell you how many emails, texts, all that kind of stuff with Cube-

Brian Bosché:
So, who are you sending them to? Are you sending them to Ice Cube directly?

Todd Radom:
Yup.

Brian Bosché:
Was there any other stakeholders in the process, or it's just you and him trying to get through it?

Todd Radom:
It was me and him. Once we got it right, he kicked it down the line and shared it with people he trusts you. He's a collaborative guy, think about everything he's done in his life professionally. It's all based on collaboration. So, there were a couple of times that he got, "Okay. Let's try this on top of this and see where it goes." Sometimes we pushed it out there. As he has said, we chop it up, we mix it up. At the conclusion of this, I will share with you a link, which you're free to share.

Todd Radom:
But basically, I spent the day at his house in January before everything started, before all of it started, in anticipation with a couple of people of this coming season, which hasn't happened. I was going to give a talk on BIG3 at Arizona State University Law School for a friend of mine who is a sports law professor there. So, I had Cube do just a little intro, so I'll share it with you.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Teams have to collaborate. They're using all these technology tools to try to manage that process and make sure people are doing the right thing at the right time. But you're just texting Ice Cube back and forth. Did you use any other technology tools in your process or anything to make it a little easier to manage the feedback and approvals?

Todd Radom:
Not really. At first, it didn't make sense just knowing the... Because it was such a concentrated set of stakeholders if you want to look at it that way. Normally, we might go through Google Sheets and blah, blah, blah. I hesitate to say seat of our pants, because that sounds very sloppy and unprofessional. But going with the gut and having a good relationship with any client, the level of trust of which you discussed earlier. We hashed out, it was there. So, let's just send emails back, forth, back, forth. There's also a three-hour time difference. I'm on the East Coast. He's on the West Coast. So, we worked into a rhythm here, and we had it down to a science.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. So, what were some of the goals? When you were designing these, what did you see as a success? When you launched these, what would you consider a success for?

Todd Radom:
So, I think with any sports brand, just take this big picture holistically, right? You're designing something for everybody. You are anticipating or trying to anticipate things that you cannot anticipate. So, with the bare bones minimum, you want to have, as we discussed earlier, players look their best. You want to roll out an appearance that is legitimate, and professional, and polished, and reflects the values if you want to look at it that way that you're trying to convey. So, then you take it down furthermore. We talked about form and function. What's the functionality?

Todd Radom:
The functionality is, if I am in American Airlines Center in Dallas and there are 19,000 people in that arena with a half a court, I want somebody sitting in the very top row to be able to look down there and differentiate between these two teams to who the players are, even if they can't read the names on the back of the uniforms, okay? So, we get down to that. How does it look on broadcast? We don't have a robust licensing program, the BIG3, but we might someday. Hopefully, fingers crossed on all fronts.

Todd Radom:
But of course, I've dealt with this from everything as you referenced from Super Bowl to more professional teams that I could possibly count on my fingers and toes. But what do you want? You want a series of visual assets, somebody who is producing polo shirts can embroider on, but you want something that can rotate and extrude and get up on a giant scoreboard like we said before, [crosstalk 00:36:31].

Brian Bosché:
Tattoo on yourself.

Todd Radom:
You want something that somebody can carve into a belt buckle with no problem or whatsoever. So, it's got bulletproof, it's got to be extendable, and it's got to be able to be activated in a stunning array of usages and have them unite with one voice.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, are there metrics that you tie to that, or is it just "Yup, this is going to work in all those places." Are there any actual quantitative metrics you tie to any of these projects?

Todd Radom:
No, I don't think so. I think that you learn from mistakes and you think about best practices. I think as designers there are certain things that you do, and you don't do. You think about proportions and scale, which I talked about earlier, and certainly having this knowledge of who does ultimately use this and who might use it. But I mean, I'll give you sort of out of left field example, again, to switch sports metaphors, is you talked about Angels having grown up where you did. I designed the Anaheim, now Los Angeles Angels identity back in 2001 for the 2002 season.

Todd Radom:
Think about what the world looked like in 2001 in every conceivable sense but think about how we interact with our mobile devices. This is years before iPhones, before Twitter, before social media. The needs then were far different, but the thing holds up whatever the aesthetic merits are, because it's sort of bulletproof. The colors work, the scale of elements work. You can add on to it, you can take away from it. Knowing all of that and having 30 years of experience with this certainly helps. You don't have to have 30 years of experience, but you can be an inquisitive, creative person and study up on these things and get that knowledge.

Brian Bosché:
Did you design the Anaheim Angels logo?

Todd Radom:
No, I did not. That was done by Dan Simon who had slew of minor league identities. At the time, I believe he was working for the Los Angeles Dodgers and did that as a freelance project.

Brian Bosché:
So, my first wallet when I was six years old, Anaheim Angels logo.

Todd Radom:
It was the greatest time, right? I mean, like 6 million colors, whatever it was with metallics and a lot of details. I will say-

Brian Bosché:
I think I still have it in my closet. That's the thing. I bet I have a lot of your logos in my apartment right now, which is pretty-

Todd Radom:
Something about sports identity. One of the great things I always say is about we are fans of a team. We are accepted into this community. This community does not ask how old we are, what our gender or race or economic situation is. We're part of this tribe of people. We are often connected by generations. So, you talk about being an Angels fan with that souvenir, that some that piece of whatever that kind of remain with you. You got something in common with somebody who probably watched the Angels play when they first hit the field in 1961?

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, absolutely. Going back to the BIG3, you're ripping through the designs for the teams. I can't believe it was two weeks.

Todd Radom:
I can't either.

Brian Bosché:
Unbelievable. So, what was the reception like when you actually got to launch, or as you're kind of nearing to the end of that project?

Todd Radom:
It was great, because as is the case with pretty much any prominent piece of design, it exists in a vacuum in our little imaginary space until it is accepted into the world. I remember, the league had a media day at Chelsea Piers in Manhattan. A couple of days before the launch, the first games were in Brooklyn at the Barclays Center, sold out. So, to see players with uniforms on their bodies and to see media from all these mainstream media outlets, and I mean that in a positive way, the ESPNs and APs and the SIs of the world, CBS and all that.

Todd Radom:
All of a sudden, it's like, "Wow," and then when the league launches, I am sitting courtside. I'm right under the basket at Barclays Center. There are 15,000 people there. I'm sitting catty-corner to Ice Cube. I'm looking around and I'm like, "We did it," right? I mean, we made it. At one point, I caught his eye. I kind of like put my hands in the air and I looked straight up as if to say, "I can't believe we finally did it." He did the same thing back at me, and that feels great.

Brian Bosché:
How does it feel saying that? You're sitting courtside, your visual identity is on the court. Unfortunately for me, I'm one of those people that I hit a huge goal and I feel a little empty. I'm like, "All right, well, what's the next thing?", and then constantly move on. I'm trying to do a better job of actually appreciating the work you put into projects. What does that feel like seeing that on the court?

Todd Radom:
It's important with everything in life even though it's sometimes difficult to live in the moment and to reap our successes. We are all humble creatives, I'm sure listening to this and I would say that our successes are built upon a mountain of failures. So, I appreciate it. Now, at the same time, I will tell you that I sit there, and I look at we had some, what we call, dazzle fabric jerseys a couple years ago. Silver jerseys for one team, and I'm looking at sweat stains, Brian.

Brian Bosché:
You're still critiquing the work.

Todd Radom:
Literally, I am on the court and there's a player about to inbound. He is eight inches from my face. I'm like, "Geez, can't have these next year, because we got."

Brian Bosché:
What can I do to tweak this, so the sweat stains aren't so bad?

Todd Radom:
I mean, the fact is, nobody's probably going to see that on broadcast. Nobody's going to see it in the stands. But we are our worst critics and enemies at times. We never sit on our laurels and hopefully, we strive to improve our work without it making us crazy.

Brian Bosché:
Yes, well, living in the moment and appreciating something that you accomplish in the moment is a very powerful message. I know a lot of creatives struggle with that.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, we all, Even after all these years, I do. It is a grind. That's a word that's supplied by a lot of us for several different reasons, but yeah exhale a little bit. Take stock of what you've accomplished and utilize that energy and push it to the next thing for sure.

Brian Bosché:
Well, I like to end every creativeBTS Podcast with a parting shot, if you will. So, your piece of advice that you'd give to people wanting to get into design, into sports design, any branding projects. It could be from BIG3 or anything in your career, kind of what is your parting shot that you'd like to pass on to the listeners?

Todd Radom:
Great question, a couple of things. I will tell you right now, I am Chairman of the Board of the Alumni Society School of Visual Arts, right, my alma mater. There are 40,000 alumni around the world, including a bunch of design students who have just graduated into the most challenging atmosphere I could possibly imagine. So, I was asked to give a couple of words to them just via social media, whatever. So, here's what I would impart, because I think it ties into that. Being a creative person is never easy for many of the reasons that we just discussed. Being a creative person now is even more difficult.

Todd Radom:
Stay in the course, know if it's in you that it's got to come out. Persevere, it's a terrible word to use in certain sense, because not everybody has the same temperament. We're human beings here, right? We're not machines. So, stick it out. Take joy in your work. Again, that balance in life, eight hours, eight hours, eight hours. If it's possible, partake in it. Be an interesting person, be inquisitive. Read books, read books! Please.

Brian Bosché:
Write.

Todd Radom:
Yeah, write. Exercise your creativity in different way. But know that at heart, deep, deep within, I think a lot of us, probably all of us, share the same attributes.

Brian Bosché:
Well, thank you so much, Todd. I appreciate you coming on and your words of wisdom. Hopefully, the BIG3 can come back soon safely. We get those guys back on the court with the visual identity you've created.

Todd Radom:
Listen, Brian, it's been a pleasure, some great questions, a terrific conversation. Hopefully, the world gets better. Hopefully, we all stay healthy. Hopefully, sports comes back. A lot of perspective at this moment, but let's all be well and be together soon, really together. Like I said, I appreciate the opportunity.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Thanks, Todd.

Todd Radom:
Thank you, Brian. Thank you.