Andrew Grinaker from Tableau on creating the COVID-19 Data Hub

Brian Bosché:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Creative BTS podcast today. I am so excited to welcome Andrew Grinaker from Tableau. How's it going, Andrew?

Andrew Grinaker:
Good, good. Thank you for having me.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I'm really excited for this one and would love to just kind of start out by learning more about your background. I know you've been in marketing for a long time, you're a basketball coach, you run an AAU team on the side, even coached one of my friends, who I play basketball with every week, but would love to get a little background on your experience in marketing.

Andrew Grinaker:
Of course, yeah. The world always gets smaller the older we get with friends of friends of friends. Yeah, no, I'm currently at Tableau right now, but before that, I was at Possible, which now is Wunderman Thompson agency. Really, there I was working on social and content strategy, helping build those teams up. I'm working with some big brands like AT&T, Coca-Cola and others. Yeah, then before that I worked in a couple of different areas around reputation management, SEO, different areas, working a lot of times on the editorial side as well. But yeah, now I'm at Tableau and excited to tell you more about kind of our last a month or so.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, definitely. What is your specific role at Tableau?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, so you kind of caught me at an interesting time. I'm actually recently transitioning into a new role. My first two plus years at Tableau was within the integrated marketing team, and I was a global marketing lead, basically working on some of our high profile, high visibility projects that we were pushing out globally, big sort of integrated campaigns. Just recently, I've transitioned over to helping better define the vision and experience for our Tableau community and kind of how we're connecting with our users in different ways and giving them the ability to not only expand on their own personal careers, but also connect with like-minded users within the Tableau community. That's kind of where I'm at currently.

Brian Bosché:
That's amazing. For those of you who aren't familiar with Tableau, because it is primarily a B2B company, but with this project your team has launched, increasingly more consumer focused, or at least everyone can take advantage of it. What is Tableau?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. Tableau is a traditional B2B tech company. Sort of got its initial start in the Bay Area from a couple of professors out of Stanford and then kind of quickly expand up into the Seattle area and has really been the go-to analytics platform for the private sector and the public sector, nonprofits, many Fortune 100 companies, Fortune 500 companies are using Tableau to help really not only manage their data, but visualize their data and gets a better insights quicker. Yeah, we recently, man, almost been a year now when it was first announced Salesforce acquired Tableau.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, congrats by the way.

Andrew Grinaker:
Thank you. We're technically a part of the Salesforce family, and that's been so far a good synergy between the two companies, but we're still continuing to focus on being sort of the world's best analytics platform for individuals and for companies.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. That was a big win for Seattle. I'm also in Seattle. I use Tableau every day at work. You're kind of one of the pillars of the city from the technical perspective, so it's good to see that huge win to bring more of a spotlight into the Seattle tech community.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, definitely.

Brian Bosché:
One of the reasons or the reason I wanted to bring you on, I saw your tweet we've been following for a while and saw your project launched in GeekWire, but the COVID-19 Data Hub Dashboard. Incredible project. As I was reading more about it, really wanted to have you on to go over the behind the scenes of how your team actually put this together. Do you have kind of a quick pitch on the data hub dashboard, or maybe I'm calling the project wrong.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, it's evolved so much over the last five plus weeks we've been starting this thing, but I think the quick elevator pitch is that we saw that Tableau had an immense opportunity to help give access to data to good, clean, trusted data in this pandemic scenario, so we have started a resource hub, what we're calling a data hub in which we are providing the right access to data for organizations and individuals to do their own analysis and understand what the impact is within that data hub. We have a dashboard starter, so that for our Tableau customers they're able to basically ... it's basically like a jumpstart workbook and something that they can basically get started earlier on. Then we've also been curating a bunch of data visualizations from our community as well as building some editorial content around what's been going on as far as data and data visualizations go with the pandemic. Yeah, that's been kind of our focus. Really started out as just something that we knew we could have a role in, and it really expanded from there.

Brian Bosché:
It seems like it hits your company mission in an amazing way right in line with everything you're trying to do anyway. We're both in Seattle, so we were one of the first cities impacted by COVID-19, so we've been working at home for the last month or so. It feels like forever. But where does an idea like this come from? When this happens, there's a pandemic, everyone's working from home, there's a lot of questions around how do we work? How is this going to impact us? How does an idea like this even start?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. A big part of this project getting jump-started and kicked off is, for those that aren't familiar, we have a platform that's called Tableau Public, and this is where we host. It's a basically a host and repository for data visualizations submitted, created by our community of users. It's public.tableau.com, and we had noticed a few visualizations being created and published to the platform regarding coronavirus, COVID-19 different keywords of that nature, and we pulled together a small ... It was actually there was three of us in a room to start off, and we kind of said like, "Hey, what can we do?" This is how long it started. We were actually in the office together having a meeting and we said, "Hey, what should we do with this? Maybe we could curate a list of visualizations."

Andrew Grinaker:
We went away for about 24 or 48 hours, came back, and we'd heard about another person within our customer success team that was actually working with a few of our influential community members. We call these Zen Masters. They're the top of their class within Tableau. They're actually voted upon and vetted every single year. There was a few of them that were working with our team to build out basically a dashboard that people could leverage. At first, we were going to let it fly under the radar and really saw that there was an opportunity to showcase this data and the access to the data as this huge opportunity for Tableau.

Andrew Grinaker:
We first published the dashboard and basically just the technical details, and then from there we got a lot of attention from other parts of the business, from our marketing executives, from our CEO, from Salesforce, and that helped sort of shift into another gear basically once we [crosstalk 00:08:01] attention. That's kind of where it started from. It was a combination of myself, our public affairs director, as well as someone who represents our Tableau Public team is kind of the initial few that started this thinking originally.

Brian Bosché:
Everything's been happening pretty fast since the pandemic hit. How did you even get in the same room together? What instigates a, "Ooh, we see an opportunity here. Let's go pursue it."

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. Initially, the big opportunity was that we have triggers on our visualizations on Public where we'll understand how many views they're getting and what sort of traction they're getting, and we had a few visualizations that were being utilized by CNBC and another TV outlet in Germany that were getting hundreds of thousands of views. We were sort of keen on the idea that there is a desire here to be involved and to provide more of a structure and an organized set of how we are sharing this stuff out. Then as that started, then things got very serious and very real locally, and this is where I think there was a thought of, like, we're going to shift a lot more of our marketing into how we can support this, and this was a thing that we had already sort of started to get some legs to. Yeah, that's where we kind of then started to put more resources towards it, more structure, more framework towards the project.

Brian Bosché:
So you almost have Tableau Public is setting you up for success where you can see what the most popular visualizations are, what your users are doing, what's picking up the most momentum, and it's almost just like a breeding ground of ideas for your marketing team it sounds like.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. We've actually used Tableau Public and the visualizations that our community creates to help fuel some of our other marketing projects in the past. We launched, over previous summer, a data plus music campaign where we basically asked our community to build out specific visualizations around artists or concerts or different areas that they were interested in. The results of that helped us tell a better product story for people that maybe they don't want to see a demo of the same set of data that they always have to play with, but if they can go play around with the lyrics of Fleetwood Mac or something along those lines, they may be more interested in it. So we knew there was an opportunity to leverage the work of our community to help tell a better story.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, and especially in times like this where I talked to a lot of marketers and creatives who are kind of hesitant of what should we be marketing right now? What even content should be producing How can we help? It seems like everyone shifted to, "Okay, let's take our resources and let's figure out how we can help the most." This is one of the most impactful projects, campaigns, whatever you want to call it, I've seen.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. No, that's definitely where I think it's continued to get support internally is because of that longterm goal of being able to help as many people as we can and the right people that we can. Tableau's mission is to help people see and understand data, and this is that exact example of that. We've already seen a huge amount of success in terms of the number of times the workbook has been downloaded, and we even have insights into the organizations that are using the data.

Andrew Grinaker:
I can't share specific names, but there are large health organizations, banking organizations huge retail organizations that are all using these dashboards to then overlay with their data to have a better understanding of, hey, where's the impact going to lie? How do we get ahead of this? How do we better understand what's going on? How can we share these insights with our specific regions that have problems? Or how can we plan better for what the next three months or six months or a year looks like? Yeah, it's just kind of like the cherry on top of being able to help give access to those people and help them kind of expedite their own analysis.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. For people listening, what exactly are you visualizing? What kind of value does this add to an organization?

Andrew Grinaker:
Those are very familiar with the John Hopkins dataset, it's basically one of the data at the forefront. It's trusted, secure, it's updated on a daily basis. What we've done is we've basically cleaned that data up. We're still relying on that data source, but we've cleaned that up into a more workable, more easy format for people to then bring into their own analysis and Tableau. What would typically happen with a lot of datasets, and I'll get a little geeky for a second, but what typically happens with datasets is that there's a ton of prep work that goes into actually making that data accessible and usable and having the ability to really analyze it. So we've kind of circumvented that process, so we're providing that clean, curated dashboard for people to download into. Then also, we're also giving visibility into the other work that other organizations are doing. A lot of people that share their work on Tableau Public actually give the option to download their own workbook, so that if you want to go in and steal, borrow, copycat, whatever word you want to use.

Brian Bosché:
Use best practices.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, it's all free game, and that's when beauty of the community is that there's not really too much ego that's involved in some of those pieces. I think ultimately what we're trying to do is really just help streamline people's analysis and help guide them and kind of how they're better understanding this pandemic.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. To go back and dive into a little bit of the nitty gritty of this, the behind the scenes, you have your team, three people in a room. Was that the integrated marketing team, basically representatives from there?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. That was myself representing the community as sort of the people that are building the visualizations.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. In your new role there?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. And then another person in the Tableau Public team kind of understanding what was out there and currently exists, and then we also had our public affairs director, and that's kind of where we initially started.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. So you start there, you have this idea You want to take it .so many of these great ideas just die in the approval process or in trying to get resources for it.

Andrew Grinaker:
Sure.

Brian Bosché:
So how did you actually get it to that next level where you could actually break through, and what teams did you bring in? How did you get those approvals to move forward with it? We'd love to hear a little bit more kind of the behind the scenes of actually how you accomplished that.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. Well, it moved very quickly because we got one of our marketing executives and our CMO basically were like, "We're pushing on this now. Let's go now. What resources do we need? Give us a better sense of if you were to build a tiger team or a B team or whatever word you use internally, what does that team look like in order for us to move quickly, agile?" So that was one of the first things we did is we kind of scoped out if we were to support something like this, what would that structure look like? What team members would we need? We never really got pushed back from the start about pushing this forward. We soon moved to daily stand ups.

Andrew Grinaker:
We're still in a daily standup mode. Every 8:00 AM we have a meeting of ... I'm trying to see what the most recent total is now, but I think it's up to like 25 or 30 people on that daily standup, and kind of going through, again, what are we doing today? What are we doing this week, as every standup sort of operates. But yeah, that's kind of where we move quickly to sort of scope that initiative out and figure out how do we want to move forward with next steps. I think we have some very ambitious people on our team, which it's a beautiful thing, but it's also a thing where you're constantly challenging yourself to deliver. It's one reason why I love Tableau. It's one reason why we have a lot of high-performing people within our marketing org, but what we basically did was we propped up a newsroom.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Fast.

Andrew Grinaker:
We created editorial content.

Brian Bosché:
I love the tiger team format. That's an incredible way to just go after these things.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. I think our initial set, I think if we kind of look at this in stages, and you can envision me doing stages with my hands since this isn't video, but I think we started with that three. The team of three only really existed for a matter of days before we were like, "Look, we're going to do this thing. Let's move forward." Then we went to probably 10, and basically there were strategic leads for each parts of the business, so then we had an editorial lead and then we had a sort of who's communicating with sales? Who's going to be the creative lead? Who's going to help us write things, kind of formulating that. Then as we started to figure out what does the experience look like and what content do we want to create, that's where we started to expand on some of the individual contributors.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, today it's its own internal team. It's quite a few people working full-time. It's quite a few people even working on the side or sort of in combination with their regular job that's going on. But yeah, propping up a newsroom, it was sort of a joke.

Brian Bosché:
A week? A couple weeks?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. In two weeks I'd probably say we propped up a newsroom in which we were ... And Slack channels. Many Slack channels.

Brian Bosché:
Obviously.

Andrew Grinaker:
But, yeah, propped it up in a couple of weeks, and then we've probably already made five or six iterations to the hub itself in terms of design improvements, UX flow. Those are all things that we've kind of consistently been evaluating. It's probably been one of the biggest challenges with the project is you have ambitious things you want to do, but you've got to make sure you're having a clear mind of what needs to happen today, tomorrow and in the next 72 hours. Yeah, it's been a pretty, it's eventful five or six weeks to say the least.

Brian Bosché:
And have you spun up these tiger teams in the past, or is this one of the first ones you've done? Is it a pretty common practice in Tableau?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, we've done ... We typically ... Yeah, not to this extent. We have done tiger teams in the past when we're trying to solve process changes or we're trying to get to what is the ultimate solution we want to deliver for a particular marketing project or those sort of things, but not to this extent. Yeah, we have two project managers, we have a technical lead, we have three people from the creative team. It's definitely gotten bigger than things that we've done in the past.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I've seen it more as a common practice now where marketing teams, marketing creative has to move so quickly that the typical structure of having all the different departments, all the teams, all the business units trying to take on projects like this really slows you down. Even when it's not a global pandemic, which is obviously top of mind for everyone, has to be reacted to really quickly, and obviously changes a lot of strategy and plans, but even throughout the year type things, they'll come up, like events or maybe you see one of your visualizations that starts to take off. Maybe it was March Madness last year. Creating these smaller teams within a company seems to be a really good practice to move fast, to be more dynamic and adjust. Do you think that you'll continue doing this with the success of this one, where you kind of have a model of when something like this happens, you're going to spin up a new one, or what are some of the things you've learned longterm from actually building out this team?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. I think we've definitely learned how to be a little bit more agile. Truthfully, Tableau as a marketing org as in I think has been in a pretty good space. We've done a pretty good job of trying to be as nimble as possible. I think one thing that you always have to keep in mind when you're trying to create a tiger teams is taking out process at the expense of something else that's failing, and a lot of times sometimes that ends up being the bandwidth of people that are involved in the team. It's like, hey, we're going to strip out the process to improve the speed, but that just means that more people have to work longer hours in order to sort of facilitate that. That's been something that we've let things run as fast as we could for the first few weeks.

Andrew Grinaker:
Then we not necessarily hit pause, but we wanted to take a moment to reflect and say, "Okay, where can we actually bring in some more rigid process to this, so that we all don't get so burnt out on the random Slack message at 7:45 PM or the email that comes through from an executive at this hour that we need to address." We've done a good job of factoring in milestones throughout the week where we say, "Okay, there's drop dead times and days where if we want to add something to this hub here. Here's where that cadence looks like." If you want something up on Monday, when do you actually need to have it ready to go, or Wednesday afternoon or those sort of things. We definitely haven't gone back to the formal process of putting in a ticket for everything and responding and going through feedback and those sort of things, but we've definitely tried to help create some efficiencies without slowing things down too tremendously.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. And quick now, are you all in the same location, or are you doing this with people based around the world?

Andrew Grinaker:
Our marketing org does span globally. We are working with teams in our APAC and EMEA regions that are helping provide some examples of visualizations and also use cases that we're seeing, so there is some work around coordination there. Typically, we'll have connections either in the morning with the European countries or in the evening with the Asian countries and some of those time zones. Yeah, primarily it's mostly out of Seattle. Now that doesn't necessarily mean much since everybody's home, but yeah, for the most part it's the people that are within the Seattle area helping manage the project.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. When it's global, you start to get into the weird time zones where people are having to stay at all hours or get on a call at 9:00 PM, which can definitely be a challenge.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. The funny anecdote about that one thing that we have learned, and not just through this project, but there's also ways to take advantage of that where you could basically have a team working for 24 hours if you do it correctly.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, true.

Andrew Grinaker:
But you've got to you got to make sure that those like feedback loops and milestones are done properly, but you just have to keep that in mind that, for example, if I really want someone in our London office to take a look at something and review something, I better get it out before I leave for that day so that I can come back to it tomorrow. Just some of those things.

Brian Bosché:
Just be mindful about it.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. And then you mentioned streamlining the approval process or review process on things. Obviously, when you have projects like this where you need to get things out the door quickly, you have to change up processes a little bit. Any other learnings you've had from this more dynamic team where you haven't been able to go with the standard processes to make it go faster?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, that's a good ... Yeah, the daily stand ups definitely helped just because we forced ourselves to understand what's ahead of us for the next day or so. We've also tried to identify specific meetings in which we are making hard decisions on certain things and making the critical decisions that need to be made within that meeting. I think that's such a broad learning, but that is so important for all teams is just really make sure that you have clarity on what decisions need to be made and how do you keep things moving forward. But other than that, we haven't adjusted as much.

Andrew Grinaker:
I think we've relied on ... I think the way I look at it as if we would have done this while we were in the office, we probably would have set up an actual war room in which we would have basically been in the room the whole time and just communicating with each other. We've done that before. We've had a team that did that with the Salesforce acquisition in different areas, so we've had some familiarity with that. I think the difference is it's basically like virtual war rooms, which is the Slack and the email and the WebEx/Zoom lifestyle. Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
That makes sense. You're talking about the virtual war rooms and things, so Slack, Zoom. How else have you kind of been managing your work from a technology perspective? Any best practices you've found there?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, so I feel like it's been a wave of adjustment as this thing has worked from home has been happening. I think at first everyone was on Slack, and everyone's still on Slack. I think that certain people work fine in that immediacy world of like, "Hey, what's Slack do? Let's jump on this thing," and others want to have a chance to digest things and-

Brian Bosché:
Respond to me immediately. Slack is a very direct response platform.

Andrew Grinaker:
There's a psychology behind having unread numbers next to people's names, and it's just like you have a number next to your text messages. You feel that like weight and burden.

Brian Bosché:
Attention, yeah.

Andrew Grinaker:
[crosstalk 00:27:04] check it out. I've transitioned, to be honest, over the last few weeks into trying to do more over email, just so that I actually give people the space. If it's something that's like, "Hey, I need this link or I need this decision now," sure, maybe not relying on email, but I feel like we ... And Tableau's probably not the only one that did this, but we over-indexed on Slack in the immediacy piece. Then suddenly it's like, "Hey, I Slacked that thing to you two days ago," and it's like 40 messages behind the rest of what's going on.

Andrew Grinaker:
We've tried to help slow down that process a little bit. It's always a difficult one to do, but that's kind of been where we're at. We're an Adobe shop from a creative standpoint, but yeah, a lot of Slack, a lot of real time reviews, which is like-

Brian Bosché:
Over Zoom?

Andrew Grinaker:
That's something we've worked really closely. Yeah. For someone who's worked really closely with creatives, I always thank the creatives that they're willing to go through that process. There are any creatives that are not interested in going through a real time sort of review that sit down, and I mean real time as in, "Hey, let's move this and see what it looks like." Not like, "Hey, I think that should be moved down. Can you go back to your desk and play around with it?"

Brian Bosché:
Making the changes in real time with you.

Andrew Grinaker:
We've had several of those situations where we've played around with things in real time and made updates and gotten clarification just because we don't have the ability to step away and then come back and step away and come back. I know that it's been challenging for our creative team, but they've been up to the challenge. But that's definitely been something that has been different about this time and approach.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, it's especially helpful when it's something that's important and has that much value and impact.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, definitely.

Brian Bosché:
So with a campaign like this, or are you calling the campaign? Do you call it a project, tiger team?

Andrew Grinaker:
I think it's a project. It's a campaign because it has many elements to it, but I think there's also this connotation around marketers that a campaign is something where you're gaining some value of some sort. That's just my own personal take. I don't think that's the way everyone at Tableau looks at it, but I think that's why we look at it as an initiative or a project.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. So you have this initiative. I like initiative. It sounds bigger than project and more important. How do you tie metrics back to this? What are your measures of success for this? It's largely a goodwill community based thing, but you know when you go review this, how are you actually measuring success on it?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, we've looked at a couple of different ways. One, we're just trying to help become a trusted and relevant resource to help customers through the crisis, and the way we can kind of break that down from a metrics standpoint is how many times are they downloading the workbooks? How many times are they visiting the pages? Are they reading the content? There's a lot of engagement metrics that we can look at from that standpoint. We can also look at how different presses written up about the project itself. Then part of it is also we're trying to help just broadly increase awareness of Tableau was already doing a lot of these things, working with public sector and governments and agencies, and we just know that there's an opportunity to tie it into a broader story. That's part of also what we're trying to do.

Andrew Grinaker:
We're trying to provide vertical solutions for this, so working on healthcare dashboards or a retail dashboard or different pieces where we know we can give very specific solutions for their problems. It's another metric that we're looking at. Then, yeah, I mean there's a ton of other like minor ... not minor, but supporting metrics that we look at. How many visualizations from our community are being created? What does return visitors to the hub look like? How long are people spending on it? Can we drive trials of the product just from the page itself, people that are just interested in learning more about the product. Then we're looking at press mentions, we're looking at social impressions, we're looking at things like that. I don't think it would have necessarily stopped us from doing things if we wouldn't have gotten press or we wouldn't have gotten sort of good sort of coverage on what's going on, but it definitely helps us understand what sort of impact we're making.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, I mean, it is for goodwill and you want to have that positive impact on the world, but you're also spending a lot of resources on it, so you kind of have to justify it a little bit from internal spend or internal time, and it's still ongoing. We don't really know where the end is in sight. Sounds like this tiger team or this initiative is taking up a lot of people's resources and time. Where does it end? How do you continue to maintain this going forward? Do you continue to put more things in it? Do you put it on hold and let people go back to normal type work? What's your kind of vision for this going forward?

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, I think we're definitely going to continue to support it for the time being. We see the opportunity, and I think it's still relevant. There's still a lot of stories to be told. There's a lot more for people to understand around how they should be reading data and visualizations when it comes to health situation. That's one big thing that we've found. But yeah, I think ideally and optimistically, this thing does start to slow down and it doesn't become as much of a focal point. That's kind of the thing that we talk about. It's like we sort of want this project to be over, but not because we don't like doing it. It's just because we want this thing to not be as much of a concern. But, yeah, we've seen good success from it, and success in the way that we're again, better educating people and giving people more access. We don't necessarily look at success being leads, or again, how do we sort of take advantage of this. It's definitely the opposite of how we've approached this project.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. And like you said, Tableau has been doing this and the health industry for a while, and what you learn here, I'm sure you can apply to add value in other ways after this pandemic is resolved.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, definitely. Even things that aren't forward-facing, we're working with government agencies throughout the world to help them better understand what's going on with their data. That is, in itself, we know that these health organizations are going to be better equipped. We're helping the state of California, the state of New York, city of Boston, King County here in Seattle is using Tableau. We know that whatever happens with this pandemic, that these organizations will be better equipped and better understand what they need to do. We've seen that, frankly, from different organizations. What we've talked about is who has had a data culture? Who has had a culture of data already in their organization to support something like this, instead of being like, "Wait a minute, we've got to step back. We don't know how to capture the data. We don't know how to house the data, we don't know how to visualize it." We've seen some of those scenarios, and luckily the positive output is that these people will be more prepared the next time this happens.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. From me being on the product side, I can't think of a better stress test and feedback to get than an initiative like this where you can learn from the top agencies in the world who are using this for this enormously impactful work. Yeah, I think it'll get a lot better. It's a pretty amazing initiative to take on during this time. We're just about out of time here, but any other kind of learnings you'd like to share, just general for the initiative itself or moving forward?

Andrew Grinaker:
No, we're always ... It's a little bit of advice or leaning in that direction, but we try to do our best to really lean on our customers and our community to understand what they're hearing, what they're thinking, what they're feeling. That's been validated and confirmed even more so in this project.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, it sounds like a customer came up with that first visualization or that [crosstalk 00:36:07].

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah. It was a small team that basically helped prop that up, and then once we realized that they were going to be overwhelmed by maintaining it is where we took it over, but they not only influenced it, they inspired the team to take it further. That's something I think it's continued to validate for us is that there's so many talented people within our user base, and I'm sure a lot of companies are the same way.

Brian Bosché:
Yes, I love that.

Andrew Grinaker:
That how do you not only facilitate feedback between them, but how do you like keep them involved and help. I think everybody sees the authenticity and the honesty in leveraging customers in their own work, as opposed to ...

Brian Bosché:
You sitting in a room trying to come up with something.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, exactly. There are people that are still going to sit in a room and come up with something, it's just how do we also leverage the community that we do have access to to help inspire us, motivate us to do better?

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I love that. Marketers have to stay close to customers, and they can come up with some of the best ideas.That's an amazing takeaway from this. Well. Thank you, Andrew, for coming on so much and best of luck with your tiger team as you continue to maintain this as we go through this pretty unprecedented time.

Andrew Grinaker:
Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, appreciate it.

Andrew Grinaker:
All right.

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