Keith Stoeckeler and Elliot Gerard from MKTG on getting creative with clients during the pandemic

Brian Bosché:
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Creative BTS podcast. Today, I am so excited to welcome on Keith Stoeckeler and Elliot Gerard from Marketing, MKTG. Which one?

Keith Stoeckeler:
MKTG.

Elliot Gerard:
MKTG.

Brian Bosché:
MKTG. Got it. Nailed the names, didn't get the agency right. That's all right. We'll move on. We prepped for [crosstalk 00:00:23] this. I forgot. That was the one question I forgot.

Elliot Gerard:
We do marketing. Yes.

Brian Bosché:
MKTG. Very apt name. So I just want to start out. Keith, if you want to kick us off because you're first on my list here, what is your background?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, for sure. Brian, thanks for having us.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
True pleasure. So this is my 15th year in ad agencies. It's all I've really known. Came out of school at an ad agency, and through my senior year last semester through an internship, realized that marketing agencies and advertising agencies may be something I was interested in. But bounced to some of the holding companies. I've been with all of them except WPP at this point. And-

Brian Bosché:
Nice.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, it's [crosstalk 00:01:07].

Brian Bosché:
Holding out?

Keith Stoeckeler:
... holding company bingo. No, it's not an intentional thing. It's just how it happened. And done CPG stuff, a lot of automotive or things that had an engine, some clothing stuff, some healthcare/pharmaceutical, and then the last four years I've been at MKTG, really focused in sports and entertainment. And with Elliot and our teams, we primarily focus in social media, a lot of content, but very pervasive in digital and social throughout.

Brian Bosché:
Great. Thanks, Keith. Elliot, you're up.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. So I think I graduated Pratt in 2007, I think. So it's been a while. And have worked from everywhere being smaller agencies to in house at various consumer companies, as well as even at a university. I worked there as well. And have my own business that I built from just working with my contacts and working with companies like ESPN, teams like the Knicks, leagues like MLS, directly with athletes as well.

Elliot Gerard:
And that business led to me meeting with Keith and his team, because they saw what I was doing for I believe it was Sports Illustrated. And they reached out to me and were like, "Hey, you deal with some soccer stuff with Sports Illustrated. We need to do some soccer stuff for this campaign with AT&T. Do you want to come on board for that and just as a freelancer?" And I looked at their site and I was like, "This place looks awesome."

Elliot Gerard:
So I started [crosstalk 00:02:53].

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Great website.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The site [crosstalk 00:02:55].

Brian Bosché:
Great marketing for MKTG.

Elliot Gerard:
The site could be a little better, but overall just the message behind what we do and the ... We're an international company, so many different offices in so many different countries and just exciting place.

Elliot Gerard:
So after working with Keith for a little bit, I was like, "Hey, maybe we should combine forces and I should come on full time." And I convinced him. Took a little bit, but I don't know if he regrets it. But I've had fun.

Brian Bosché:
You got together.

Keith Stoeckeler:
That's what this podcast is about. It's an intervention and the fact that I can't do this anymore.

Brian Bosché:
So what's the breakdown between your guys' roles? What kind of different part of the business or different part of the agency do you bring?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah. So I started my career in account management and transitioned to planning and strategy once I was at an agency that had it. So right now, I'm more operations for the team, but certainly dip into strategy, both from digital/social and brand. But it's a lot of operational stuff right now.

Keith Stoeckeler:
The team's about five and half, six years old, so we're still getting to that sweet spot where we have to be building and getting up and running. But that's my focus, and Elliot's the creative Wizard of Oz.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, I make the pretty pictures.

Brian Bosché:
Care to comment, Elliot? Wizard of Oz? Leave it at that?

Elliot Gerard:
That's my nickname, Wizard of Oz.

Keith Stoeckeler:
That's his business card.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. What's great about my role is I work directly with Keith on all social and digital plays and everything. But my philosophy is always about making things live and social at the same time, and I get to do that with MKTG. So we do a lot of hospitality events, we do fully integrated campaigns that are social, digital plays, as well as a hospitality, sometimes also experiential all mixed into one.

Elliot Gerard:
So we're doing stuff for the Superbowl where we're creating activations that have digital components like projection mapping on the walls, but also making social plays around that at the same time. So get to do everything, which is what I've always [crosstalk 00:05:21] anyways, not just digital.

Elliot Gerard:
But we do everything from even stuff for broadcasts and print magazines a little bit. But mostly, it's events-based ... and that's in the digital plays as well.

Brian Bosché:
And Elliot, you've worked in house, correct? I saw that on your LinkedIn.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. Yeah. So I worked at a company called Turtle Beach, which was the number one gaming headset for a while. And that's where I got into SNE in some ways. I started working with athletes, creating custom headsets for them for MLG things. So Dwight Howard had one, Dez Bryant, and we made all this custom stuff for them and obviously gamers as well, so professional gamers.

Elliot Gerard:
And worked in some other in houses, but that's the most prevalent one that people might now. Also worked at a university, LIU. At the time, I was getting my MBA, which I didn't finish because I came to MKTG. But-

Keith Stoeckeler:
I don't blame you for that.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. But it was great. All those experiences were great because they really helped build me up understanding how you work with a consumer brand, how you work for a university, so for a team. I was doing all the sports for all the teams. And so you get a better understanding of how that works.

Elliot Gerard:
I [crosstalk 00:06:59].

Brian Bosché:
Do you enjoy the [crosstalk 00:06:59]?

Elliot Gerard:
... and whatnot. What'd you say?

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Do you enjoy the agency side where you can work with different clients, different types of things a little bit more?

Elliot Gerard:
Exactly. And I have built my own company while I was working in all these other companies. So like I said, I worked with brands like CBS, ESPN, or outlets and teams like the Cavs, the Knicks, and leagues as well like MLS.

Elliot Gerard:
And so I was already used to that.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
And brought my business in house. We've built up actually different verticals now with our group that we didn't have before. I won't say in all because of my clients, but I was able to bring in some of my clients and Keith ... And we also brought in a guy Jonah who was with the Knicks, who knew both me and Keith. I worked directly with Jonah with the Knicks, and somehow he liked working with me enough to come on board at MKTG. So the three of us are the three amigos, I guess.

Brian Bosché:
Amazing.

Elliot Gerard:
So, yeah. Working in an agency, it's just more fun. You don't feel limited.

Brian Bosché:
Keith, you ever feel like turning to the in house side or WPP, the two left?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, I got to cross one of those off, I guess, right? I've given it some thought. I don't know, but it's not on the horizon anytime soon. That much I know.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. It seems like you guys have a good setup here and rapport with the three amigos.

Keith Stoeckeler:
That's it. We're going [crosstalk 00:08:32].

Brian Bosché:
Can't break it up yet [crosstalk 00:08:33].

Keith Stoeckeler:
... legally change our name, Three Amigos LLC.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
Wizard of Oz.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. So going back to MKTG, I'm going to get that right every time, hopefully, on this podcast, what makes it unique? You talked about going social, live events, experiential, sports. What else separates or makes your agency unique?

Keith Stoeckeler:
The positioning of the agency is this human positioning. And as somebody that's come up in strategy and planning and you write briefs and you try to inform creatives on what to do with the work and there's always this target audience or what's the problem or who are we trying to get this message in front of, and everyone's like, "Millennials" and there's all these [crosstalk 00:09:16].

Brian Bosché:
TikTok.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Right. You know what I mean? And at the end of the day [crosstalk 00:09:19].

Brian Bosché:
What's our TikTok strategy?

Keith Stoeckeler:
It's human, right?

Elliot Gerard:
We have an expert. We have an expert.

Keith Stoeckeler:
We do. So I've always appreciated the fact that we just hit it straight on and acknowledged the fact that we're talking to humans at the end of the day. And I think the culture is fantastic and the people as well. So we're at a really interesting time with the agency, not just interesting time in the world these days, but an interesting time with the agency in that, like I was saying, we're five, six years into this team and I think we're just getting started. So that's, I think, the most interesting and the thing that gets me up every day that I'm most charged up about.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. And Elliot, what's an example of something you've worked on that makes a brand more human from the creative side? Do you have anything off the top of your head?

Elliot Gerard:
We're going to talk some example, right, like IBM and whatnot.

Brian Bosché:
But if the differentiator is making it more human, which I love, totally agree with, what's an example of that?

Elliot Gerard:
Well, I think so IBM is an interesting client. We're selling data and they have a very specific brand guidelines. And our challenge is to make it more about being human, so doing plays like integrating with the Grammys and doing watch parties for the Grammys and finding ways to highlight Red Bull and how their technology makes the Red Bull racing car go faster for F1 and how do you find that in originals.

Elliot Gerard:
So I feel like we're going to go farther in that, but you were going to [crosstalk 00:11:05].

Brian Bosché:
Yep. That's a good example though.

Elliot Gerard:
But I think they're a brand that Keith and I both take pride in the fact that we try to make it as human as possible and you're starting ... It's not a Nike. It's a different kind of brand ...

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
.. to make human.

Brian Bosché:
Or, at least, instead of just talking all about the technology, showing how the technology enables things for human beings and what that can do.

Elliot Gerard:
Exactly.

Brian Bosché:
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So kicking off on your specialty, which is sports, live events, this experiential, we're obviously in a global pandemic right now where those things are not happening. So I'm really curious, from the agency side, when you're working with your clients, what have you seen change? Is there a change of focus, change of tone? What are you hearing from your side?

Keith Stoeckeler:
I don't know. I think it took some time. I think a lot of marketers were paralyzed, for lack of a better word, and I don't think I can blame them.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But at the end of the way and with us in sports, we have a number of clients that we're trying to make sure that we're still keeping fans and consumers engaged. And we have a lot of motor sports business, and we're obviously not racing right now, but there's a lot of things in sports that are going to the e-sports side. And we have always been proponents of e-sports, but I think now we're seeing everybody's jumping in a lot faster than they planned on it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And a lot of things, I hope, continue even after real live sports come back. But we're seeing a lot of digital and social, which is great for us. We're seeing a lot of e-sports. I wouldn't say that tone ... I think you just have to be mindful of what you're saying in this current environment, but I still think everybody's approach has relatively remained the same. They're just trying to be empathetic as best as possible and show that they're human, again, at the end of the day.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But we've been trying to get into some spaces that we've been talking to some clients about for a little while and trying to just be a little bit adaptable. We had a shoot today where we're working with a partner that drops all the camera equipment on one's doorstep. It's all sanitized and everything, and then we can, like what we're doing here, create a direct-to-shoot. And we wanted to do it first and foremost as a proof of concept to see if it'll actually work, but stuff like this is the "new normal," which is really interesting. And we're just trying to have fun, trying to figure it out along the way.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. It's really funny you say that because when we first started our creative agency in 2012 in Detroit, our first concept, it's called TurnPro, very much borrowing from GoPro, where we would send GoPro camera packages so that businesses could do their own production that we would direct, they'd send it back, and we'd edit it. We were trying to do video production at scale. Seems like we were maybe eight years too early here, but [crosstalk 00:14:11].

Elliot Gerard:
Wow. You guys could predict the future.

Brian Bosché:
Oh, if only we could, things would have turned out different. Not a great margin on those videos, I can tell you that. Not a lot of buying power there.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, I could see that.

Brian Bosché:
But Elliot, on your side, what are you seeing from getting creative? I've seen some of your tweets recently about these virtual spaces that you're building out maybe as opposed to the in person.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
What kind of tactics are changing there?

Elliot Gerard:
Totally. I love virtual spaces. It's a thing that we've started to do for ... We did one virtual gallery for Hitachi. So basically, we were celebrating the entire season for Josef Newgarden because he won last year and we had a different artist doing it for a piece of ... It was called Artists of the Race Series. So for each race that Hitachi had the main paint scheme, we had a different artist do a piece about that race and about his history there.

Elliot Gerard:
And so for the end of the season, we created this virtual gallery, because ultimately we would have loved to make a real gallery, but with budgets can't. So it would go through and it ran all the way through, and then you had a reel talking about the background of all the artists creating the pieces. And then it would go into the center of the gallery and there was the trophy because he won it. So it was a great way to wrap up the season, a great way to wrap up that content series, and it was just something that we've been playing with ever since.

Elliot Gerard:
So we did another thing for Vince Carter where we created these 3D, starting as 2D, line drawings that became 3D sculptures and it became a gallery celebrating his 22 years in the ... or I guess 21 and a half seasons, unfortunately, in the NBA.

Elliot Gerard:
And most recently, we did one for Jimmy Johnson Day. So we celebrated his entire career. Hopefully, he gets to finish this year also. But it was another idea of creating this virtual space with a lot of great content within it.

Elliot Gerard:
I think there's a lot in there to unpack beyond COVID in terms of how do you make virtual spaces. And I believe people are already doing this. It's just something that it's a passion of mine. How do you make those virtual spaces interact with real spaces? But yeah, right now, no one can go to real galleries, so why not have a virtual space celebrating athletes?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I think some of the first cases I saw of that that I loved was in Fortnite when they had the Marshmello concert that you could tune in live for, so live virtual space, or Quibi had, I think, the premiere of one of their first episodes of one of their shows in Fortnite where you'd go to the drive-in theater.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I saw that one.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, it's pretty fun examples to see that when everyone's stuck at home and they can't actually go somewhere live.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
But is this something that your clients are like, "Hey, let's build a virtual space," or because it's a passion of yours, are you pitching to them, "Hey, people can't go out?" How does that back and forth work to decide to pull the trigger on these type of things?

Elliot Gerard:
It's just pitching, and there are certain clients that get it and let us roll. No one has specifically come to us and said, "Hey, can you create this virtual space for us?" It's something that might eventually happen, sure. It would be great. Honestly, I want it to be a vertical of ours, I guess a vertical of virtual spaces.

Elliot Gerard:
But yeah, no. I [crosstalk 00:17:48].

Brian Bosché:
Keith, I've hit a passion point here.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
He's going for it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, I'm telling you [crosstalk 00:17:53]. How long do you have? You double check.

Brian Bosché:
Let's do 40 minutes on this.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, exactly. Go ahead. But, yeah. No. It's something that we push and smart clients agree.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. And Keith, from your side, you mentioned you see some of these tactics have staying power a little bit more, where I see IG Live is taking off. There's going to be these things that continue to be popular even when everyone goes out into the world again.

Brian Bosché:
So what are some of the things that you think have that staying power that will continue to be popular when everyone's out of the home?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah. Certainly, the video stuff. I've been digging into HouseParty, which I hope stays. It's perfect for right now, but I really do hope it stays and they figure out a way to still galvanize people. I tweeted when this thing started, "It's a shame that Chatroulette died, HQ died." Now, they brought it back.

Brian Bosché:
Yep. Yep.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But these things are perfect for these times right now. But what I was saying earlier was the e-sports NASCAR races, and the reason I hope they stay is because there are real drivers, but then there's also drivers who are retired. Dale Earnhardt Jr. drove. There's the opportunity for pit crew guys or spotter guys to be manipulating the car. So it doesn't just have to be the actual drivers. So it could be such an interesting space that I hope certainly continues.

Keith Stoeckeler:
and I hope that we'll talk about the NBA's HORSE tournament because while [crosstalk 00:19:22].

Brian Bosché:
Yes, we will.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Okay, great. I'll put a pin in that one then.

Elliot Gerard:
Well, yeah, just to talk about [inaudible 00:19:28], like I said, my background was creating custom headsets for these players. It would be great to see these retired players actually get good at playing themselves in NBA 2K or Madden. To be able to go to another evolution of their career would be great to see.

Elliot Gerard:
So, yeah. It does work even better with racing because they can ... I don't know. The apps are even more advanced in some ways. But I think all across, seeing athletes play themselves would be awesome.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. We're seeing this not just in marketing, but I work at Smartsheet. You see Zoom, you see Slack. It's driving adoption of these tools where it wasn't maybe the huge pain point before, but now it is. So the adoption afterward, people are going to get used to it and continue doing it.

Brian Bosché:
And that's the same for even telehealth. You see a lot of therapists, doctors. People are forced to actually have a video conference with the doctor, and it demystifies it, makes it normal. And in many cases, it's more convenient and they'll just keep doing it afterwards.

Brian Bosché:
So I'm glad that a lot of these pop ... e-sports, gaming, these virtual experiences, I think, will become more normalized through the pandemic and be more popular afterwards. People won't just immediately dismiss it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hope [crosstalk 00:20:53].

Brian Bosché:
It would be cool to see.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hope the video stuff stays. You mentioned the doctor. I called my doctor to figure out when I could get an appointment and they, like 15 minutes later, booked me a video chat. So it's super convenient [crosstalk 00:21:07].

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, it's amazing.

Keith Stoeckeler:
When have you ever been able to see the doctor in 15 minutes? So I love it. And now, every restaurant and everything is curbside. We ordered dinner and I picked it up the other night, and I pulled in, I popped my trunk, he put it in the trunk, I left. I had no personal interaction [crosstalk 00:21:23].

Brian Bosché:
That's amazing.

Keith Stoeckeler:
... with this man. And I hope that stuff stays because that was very convenient.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, I think Best Buy was like, "Our sales aren't down that much, all considering," because they have such good curbside pick-up.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Oh yeah. [crosstalk 00:21:36].

Brian Bosché:
When I go see my therapist, I was always like, "Oh, I have to be in person. It's the human connection." And we've just been doing video calls. I'm like, "Why am I wasting an hour commuting? Let's just do this every week." Why are we having to go do these actual human things? It's a good alternative.

Elliot Gerard:
I wonder [crosstalk 00:21:55].

Brian Bosché:
Go for it.

Elliot Gerard:
Telecommuting is going to happen, because it was a fad and I feel like it died. So I wonder if it's going to pick up again after this.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I think I'm worried that people are going to judge it, though, that this is not a normal telecommute, this is not a normal working from home situation.

Keith Stoeckeler:
No, not at all.

Brian Bosché:
So people are unfairly judging. It's, "Oh, I'm really stressed. This isn't working that well." Well, there's a global pandemic. Your background of your video call is the house burning down, Keith.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah. Sorry. It's perfectly apropos for this conversation, I'm realizing.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. So this point, Creative BTS, we go behind the scenes. BTS is also a K-Pop band, so don't confuse it for that. It's not Creative BTS, it's Creative Behind the Scenes [crosstalk 00:22:41].

Keith Stoeckeler:
... talk about K-pop.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, this is not a K-pop podcast. Hopefully, they don't sue me for using the name. Let's see if I can get it trademarked. But talking about the Zoom, Slack, Smartsheet type best practices, how have you guys found when you're working on these projects, everyone's at home? Have you seen things change? How are you handling this remote work with your teams? Teams specifically. We can move on to the client interaction next, but for your teams specifically.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I think we're still figuring it out. We initially started an AM and an afternoon status, and the afternoon was less about the work and more just, "Let's get together. What are you watching and doing? And how was your day?" kind of stuff, and maybe we'll have a drink at that point.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But I feel like more of the team is more open to sharing what's going on and it's probably because there's a device between us, even though you're seeing me on video. In person, I just think people let the room go the way that it will. But on video chat, I guess there seems to be more of a level playing field. And so [crosstalk 00:23:51].

Brian Bosché:
That's interesting.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And I frankly enjoyed it. And I think people have the option to go on video or turn the video off and just be on audio or the phone. So I just think it's giving people more options and they're certainly more comfortable.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And it's been a positive for us, but like I said, we're still figuring it out. And I think the connectivity has certainly been something I've been trying to make sure we still have, but I think what's happening is everything becomes like a video chat. So now, we're trying to go back and say, "Okay. Can it be an email or can you call me? Are there other things to do?" I've never had to look at Elliot more during the day, and it's been a hard pill to swallow. I got to tell you [crosstalk 00:24:41].

Brian Bosché:
The power dynamic is [crosstalk 00:24:44].

Elliot Gerard:
So he dared me to grow a handlebar mustache. I shaved it. I'm sure he was [inaudible 00:24:49] that I didn't have it for this call. He's growing out his beard. I don't like having a beard, but I figured I'd entertain people by having a handlebar mustache. So I did that for literally a few hours and then shaved it off.

Brian Bosché:
We have gotten a lot more social engagement on this video if you grew out a handlebar mustache.

Elliot Gerard:
I had it [crosstalk 00:25:06].

Brian Bosché:
With the beard?

Elliot Gerard:
I should have kept it. Ah, whatever. Next time.

Brian Bosché:
That's all right. So the power dynamic thing, Keith, is really interesting. I hadn't actually thought of that where, when you're in a room, based on where you're sitting or just in the physical presence of people, you may be more restrictive in how you actually interact with the room. But when you're no video and can just add in and there's a lot of silence, are you seeing people are interacting more? I had never thought of that and that's an interesting byproduct. It's almost a safer space to offer ideas in.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Totally that. I think people can join however they want to join. I've been trying to be on video so that they're able to see me and so it feels more normal. But yeah, to your point, I just think giving people the option, you can't really do this in person. Where can you enter a room and be there but not be seen? This is, I think, affording people a level of ... I don't know if it's privacy. It's allowing them to be however they want to be in order to be their best.

Keith Stoeckeler:
So I've enjoyed it and that's why I hope elements of this stay. We've always had a flexible just get your work done. It doesn't matter. We're not nine to five in an office, so it hasn't been super disruptive or changed for us. The fact that we're doing everything over video has been.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But I've been digging into all the articles about how are the workplaces going to change after all of this? Are people actually going to go back and have a lease, or are they going to see that this is actually something we can do and people have gotten over the hurdle or it's been demystified, however you want to say it, and will we continue to do this and people shed rents and all the other things that you have with office spaces?

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Elliot, on the creative side, how are you seeing it impact creative collaboration? Because I know with design teams, creative teams, video teams, there's so much over the shoulder, "Hey, come look at this," or just white boarding things out. How has that affected your team?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. I'm not as excited about it as Keith because I think a lot of it [inaudible 00:27:15] communication when it comes to creative stuff. I'm not saying that you can't do it, and like I said, I worked from home before as a creative. So of course, you can do it. And especially with clients, they're not looking over your shoulder. They're communicating via email or phone, so it's not like you don't do it.

Elliot Gerard:
It's just, in some ways, it makes you tighter as a team. I feel like we're a tight group to begin with, but I feel like we do have this "all in this together" feel. But at the same time, there's certain ideas that it's just someone says and you can't fully understand it the way that you would if you see them in person, a foot in front of you. So it does make things harder in some ways.

Brian Bosché:
Are there any technology tools that you're using, like virtual whiteboards or more creative collaboration tools?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. We [crosstalk 00:28:13].

Brian Bosché:
Is it solved with technology?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. Teams is our main way to communicate, so we do our chats there, we do [crosstalk 00:28:20].

Brian Bosché:
Microsoft Teams?

Elliot Gerard:
Microsoft Teams, yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Yep.

Elliot Gerard:
So we do use Whiteboard, we use all the Smartsheet functionality, or similar ... I don't know the name of it, but it's been [crosstalk 00:28:30].

Brian Bosché:
The project management type work tools?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we use all that stuff to keep things in order. And yeah, the whiteboard functionality [crosstalk 00:28:38].

Brian Bosché:
Which creatives typically hate.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
I think this will be a big time for creatives to actually have to adopt a lot of these tools now out of necessity [crosstalk 00:28:45].

Elliot Gerard:
We've used them.

Brian Bosché:
... because it's typically [crosstalk 00:28:47].

Elliot Gerard:
We used them before this, but yeah, you got to hold on to them tighter.

Brian Bosché:
Yep.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. Keith is the one that likes that better than me for sure.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
But-

Brian Bosché:
Everyone loves time tracking. Enter your time.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Check off the process. Keep it going.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. You can't measure creativity. But with time, you can.

Brian Bosché:
What's your ROI on your creative team?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, exactly. Shoot me.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
But, yeah. No. We're still getting the job done. I think we're doing some really great work. And like I said, I feel closer to these guys than ever and I already felt tight with them. So hopefully, we get out of this soon and we come back and it's an even stronger communication because we've dealt with this.

Elliot Gerard:
But I don't know if I'd want to always do remote. I had that choice before to work at a company that was all remote, and they did great stuff. I was actually talking to them at the same time as MKTG and I'm glad I made this choice instead. But ...

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. It's hard to replace the energy of being in the office sometimes.

Elliot Gerard:
For sure.

Brian Bosché:
I personally like the balance a little bit more. Some days, head's down, write documents, get some creative work done. I don't know if you guys [crosstalk 00:30:08].

Elliot Gerard:
... to talk in person. And so I'll go over to Keith and be like, "Yo, I got this great idea." And he's like, "Ugh, I don't want to talk to you in person. Just email me."

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
But-

Brian Bosché:
You don't want the barrier of teams between you.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Brian Bosché:
He can ignore. He can't ignore you in person.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Exactly. I can't hide from this man in person. I'm loving this new move.

Brian Bosché:
Oh, sorry. I didn't see the message on Teams.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, exactly.

Brian Bosché:
Whoopsie daisies. I don't know if you guys have seen this, but for my team at Smartsheet, I can see their homes more, their kids are there. So I feel like I'm a lot more connected to them. I've actually enjoyed that part of it. I feel like I know them [crosstalk 00:30:43] a lot better than just them in the office.

Elliot Gerard:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I've shown the kids to my team as well more than them coming to the office, but I don't know. The kids are getting pretty crazy, pretty wild, and a lot of cabin fever. So it's harder.

Brian Bosché:
You've got to have more empathy there.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Keith, for the more client side interactions, how are you seeing ... Because I guess it's mostly remote anyway, right? Elliot, you're mentioning it's mostly email, phone. But they're not together, which I can see having a big impact where their communication might be a little more disjointed. What are you seeing on the best practices or challenges you're seeing to actually work with clients directly?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah, you're right. I think when we talk through work, even if it's not just a full on presentation or pitch of anything, because everybody's in their own place, the conversations are very hard. Everyone's stepping on each other.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And I think what you have to do is try to get a lead from the agency side and a lead from the client side. And so if those two people are primarily talking, then they can bring other people into the conversation. So I think that's been helpful.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But like Elliot said, we're primarily working in Microsoft Teams, which we had done prior to this. So it's great that as an agency we got used to it. And that was because we were trying to find a good project management solution for us. We could segment work into threads.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But on Teams, I like it because anybody can join a meeting or can start a meeting. Sorry. You don't have to wait for the host. And I know we're talking client, but for talking internal, it's been interesting to see which internal people are first to the meeting. There's some people that have been first a lot, which is cool. And then on Teams, you can mute specific people, you can boot somebody from the call. So I've been enjoying that.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But I think some of the clients' softwares are not the same kind of functionality. And so we got to remind people to go on mute unless you're talking. And it's a little tricky. I guess I would think, what are we, over a month in? This stuff should be ironed out by now, but it just hasn't yet. So it's a little bit of the growing pains, if you will.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. And I can mute either of you on this, so just DM me personally if you want to mute the other person.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Please mute Elliot [crosstalk 00:33:06].

Brian Bosché:
Happy to do so [crosstalk 00:33:08].

Keith Stoeckeler:
That's great.

Brian Bosché:
Oh boy. So on the team, do you bring your clients into Teams or are they completely separate?

Keith Stoeckeler:
No, they won't look at the work and the things that we're sharing. Sometimes, we will. Most of the time, we're using it with them as a video chat [crosstalk 00:33:26].

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Got it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But no, they won't be in there providing feedback on things. It's more for us to kick things around, especially through Elliot's group, before it goes to the client.

Elliot Gerard:
But we'll have, like you said, video chats and sometimes even share screens with them. So yes, we use that functionality with them. But yeah, they're not in the team for sure.

Brian Bosché:
They're not in a channel or in one of the ... Yeah, you separate that wall. Got it. So one of the things with Slope, we were mostly content review and approval software. And that's my focus at Smartsheet now.

Brian Bosché:
So Elliot, when you are sending off creative to be reviewed by the client, maybe it's the first version, maybe it's the 10th version, hopefully you don't get too far past that.

Elliot Gerard:
Oh, we do.

Brian Bosché:
Version 32.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
Please, please, gods, approve this.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
What have you seen is best practices for asking for feedback, setting it up with the context, or whatever format? Do you send it through email? Do you do a video conference first? What are some of your best practices there?

Elliot Gerard:
It depends on the account lead. We have a guy Derrick who's been with us for a long time, and he's great. He's also production, so he does production and account, but will talk directly with the client, will go through things with them. But he also has it down to a system.

Elliot Gerard:
So other ones are hit or miss. Certain account leads are different in how they want to communicate, whether it's, "We're not communicating directly with a client. We're just sending it to them," or either emailing directly to them or the account lead itself, and then they'll follow up.

Elliot Gerard:
We use [crosstalk 00:35:09].

Brian Bosché:
Does the account lead really determine that, or is that client determined?

Elliot Gerard:
I think it's both.

Brian Bosché:
Who has a bigger impact there?

Elliot Gerard:
It's both.

Brian Bosché:
Okay.

Elliot Gerard:
Certain clients that we [crosstalk 00:35:16].

Brian Bosché:
Partnership between them?

Elliot Gerard:
... the account lead, I also think that certain account leads have their process. But personally, for me, the process I like is where you get to interact with the client directly, at least on a semi-regular basis.

Elliot Gerard:
But yeah, in terms of our group, we're really good at that. We're really good at putting briefs together, working directly with the clients, and having a direct connection.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. So I've seen something about, if it's the first pitch, you have to do it over a video call. You can't just send a doc or presentation or something. Do you have any things, those standard practices that you try to stick to?

Elliot Gerard:
In terms of pitching?

Brian Bosché:
Pitching or just giving feedback on any creative work in general.

Elliot Gerard:
I'm trying to think, a process similar to that, do I have a preference. I [crosstalk 00:36:15].

Brian Bosché:
Seems client or account person as well directed?

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. I would always want to talk over something directly, at least early on in the process, rather than just do it through a Teams chat or email for sure. So I would agree with that, either on [crosstalk 00:36:33]. Sorry. Go on.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Have you done real time editing with clients yet? I've heard that on a few other interviews I've done, where they are opening up Premiere Pro or Illustrator and clients are on the video call screen share, making changes there to see what the impact is, to move faster.

Elliot Gerard:
We have not done that yet. That is very interesting. In some ways, I want to run away from that. In some ways, I want to actually [crosstalk 00:36:56].

Brian Bosché:
It's like the most dangerous game? Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. I like that idea. We have not done that yet with a client. But it actually could be cool [crosstalk 00:37:04].

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hate that.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. I [crosstalk 00:37:06].

Brian Bosché:
You hate it?

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hate it. Yeah. Because I just feel like, if I'm looking at it, I'm like, "Wait a second. That thing just took you three clicks and you're telling me it takes you 72 hours most of the time? What's going on here?"

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I wouldn't want to open that up.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah.

Brian Bosché:
It's just a button.

Elliot Gerard:
I agree with you. I agree.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Creative button. [crosstalk 00:37:25].

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I've seen it with a team that had time zone issues, so they only had like one or two overlapping hours. And the ping pong match was just taking too long, so they just wanted to get as much done in the overlapping hours as possible.

Elliot Gerard:
That makes sense. I like that then.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Yeah. And [crosstalk 00:37:41].

Brian Bosché:
And then on the [crosstalk 00:37:42].

Keith Stoeckeler:
With a good client, sure. It could be interesting. With a bad client, that is a terrible idea.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And then a lot of ... My wife is in marketing, I did marketing for a long ... even being on an agency side and then moving over to a marketing side, I'm still terrible at giving feedback in many cases. So a lot of people want to learn. It's an art to give feedback effectively and to actually not only have a good tone, but give direction that creatives can actually execute on.

Brian Bosché:
So have you seen any good best practices for all the marketers listening on how they can work with agencies better and give creative feedback better?

Elliot Gerard:
Being precise. The biggest pet peeve of mine is, "I'll know it when I see it." That is not feedback. That is, "I don't like this. Figure it out." So to me, I like to have prescriptive dialogue with them and be able to also push back and be like, "Well, this is the reason we did it. So it's probably going to be more successful because of this." And let them say no or let them agree.

Elliot Gerard:
So I would say that's the kind of dialogue and feedback I would like.

Brian Bosché:
Got it. That makes sense. Keith, have you seen anything that you like that clients do?

Keith Stoeckeler:
Not in this certain time. I just think I've been seeing a lot of people just draw something and then throw it up to the video like, "Well, what if it was like this?"

Brian Bosché:
Oh wow. Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
In some cases, because we're doing more video, because we're all at home, we're doing more video now that we're home than I think we do when we're in the office. Not all the time are we presenting work over video. So we may actually have the opportunity now to get to things faster, to not just be beholden to the telephone and whatever else is going on.

Keith Stoeckeler:
So I think, to Elliot's point, it's really just making sure we have a dialogue back with them to say, "What if it looked like this?," or, "What particularly are you not liking about it?" So as long as we can have those ping pong questions, as you said, I think that helps us get to a good spot.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And they may not know what it is and you can take a client who says, "I'll know it when I see it," to I've gotten something out of them that I think is productive based on asking questions back to them.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah. And we've done that successfully before this, too. So there have been certain clients where it was a struggle to communicate with them, and I feel like we used certain processes, especially with actual ways to present the work, that has helped that, that has gotten us over that hump. So, yeah, there's definitely [crosstalk 00:40:38].

Keith Stoeckeler:
The other thing is [crosstalk 00:40:40].

Elliot Gerard:
Sorry. Go on.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I think you have to bring them along the way. This big reveal, we've been held up in our office or homes for three days and then, "Here it is," you're putting them on the spot to just react to it. So if there are pieces, if there are like, "Hey, I am thinking about this. Do you like this direction?," you get them to buy in along the way. That feedback and that response just becomes a little bit easier because they've been involved.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Now, they can still see it in totality and not like it, but at least you can say, "Look, these are all the pieces we talked about, and what particular piece don't you like?" And I think that helps.

Keith Stoeckeler:
We were talking about it before, of I just think for us, I know a lot of other agencies are different, for us, gone are the days of the Steve Jobs stories of he had to be presented these things on easels. We're not trying to do this whole magic show. You're not going to see it for the first time. We want to make sure you're brought along the process, and I think that helps.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. I went to the 4A's conference a few years ago, and I was like, "Gone are the days of creatives and agencies going into a black box for 12 weeks and coming back and unveiling their amazing magic that they've created." [crosstalk 00:41:56]. It's much more collaborative now.

Elliot Gerard:
We also don't smoke cigarettes in the office and drink all day and smack girls on the butt.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, the Mad Men era is not quite what it is anymore.

Elliot Gerard:
For sure.

Brian Bosché:
So changing gears a little bit, I love the making brands more human as a differentiator. Every brand I've seen do that, every single agency or even SaaS companies who have done that, where ... like WizG is one of my favorite brands. They do video marketing. They're all about making brands more human because you're showing your face instead of just copy and incorporating video more into your messaging.

Brian Bosché:
So what I found during quarantine, the stay at home orders is it seems like we are getting to know brand celebrities a lot more because they're going live, they're doing interviews, you're seeing the behind the scenes. Damian Lillard is going live every single day. And you're seeing them as humans now instead of just on the court.

Brian Bosché:
Is there anything that you've seen, and this maybe where we can go into NBA HORSE, I hope, but anything that you've seen that you might want to incorporate into future campaigns or your work with clients? What are some of your favorite things you've seen that have come out of this quarantine time?

Keith Stoeckeler:
I think the mechanics of what NBA HORSE was to be could be something that we adopt. Same with the, "We'll ship you a whole camera setup and we can remotely do it." Not only does it bring cost down, but I think we can probably be more nimble, we can run more productions concurrently.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But I liked the ESPN ... I felt like they had the right thought. Unfortunately, it fell short. And I watched the latest episode of the Tiger King recap with Joel McHale where I'm sure Netflix sent all of them Air Pods. You can't tell me these guys went out and bought Air Pods now that they're celebrities.

Keith Stoeckeler:
So for me, it was such a sharp contrast of, okay, Netflix, I'm sure they didn't see the ESPN HORSE thing, but they wanted to make sure that the quality was as good as it could be, let me give you these headphones. I'm sure they had somebody walk them through how to pair them and everything, knowing who these people were.

Keith Stoeckeler:
But you're right on the human aspect. I saw the P. Diddy with him and DJ Khaled and there was somebody else. But I'm loving the split screens of DJ Khaled probably gets a haircut every day and what he looks like now.

Brian Bosché:
Yes.

Keith Stoeckeler:
These guys are so human now. It's like, "Man [crosstalk 00:44:34]."

Brian Bosché:
They're real people.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Kevin Hart was the other one. You age 10 years in a day.

Brian Bosché:
Yes.

Keith Stoeckeler:
It's fantastic.

Elliot Gerard:
I love the DJ Nice concert that he's been doing. I just feel like it's really human. I feel like it's really connecting people with a positive vibe, and it all started organic. It's something, as marketing agency, how can we do that? How can we remake? And maybe that's not something that you can really do.

Elliot Gerard:
But I feel like people like him are becoming very ... Like you said, Damian Lillard going on. You're sharing more. You're sharing more of your moments. You're sharing your talents in different ways, and I really enjoy that and respect that.

Elliot Gerard:
I think another thing, Converse is doing Creating at Home campaign, which I really love, where they're letting artists just create and send stuff in. If I had time, I would do one. Maybe I will. But I love what that brand's doing in general. Really, Nike is letting them become their own identity.

Elliot Gerard:
But yeah, just letting people create more and being more honest about their personalities, like Keith is saying.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. NBA HORSE, for example, I actually really liked the format. I liked that we could see their homes, where are they playing. You get the behind the scenes. The technology just has to work. If you're doing IG Live, if you're broadcasting, it has to work. When you're going live on TikTok or something, it can't just be choppy or it falls apart.

Brian Bosché:
So I think the concepts are there and I hope that the technology can catch up a little bit. Like the at home productions, you send that equipment to them, hopefully the learning curve goes down so that more people and it's more accessible to people to actually produce that type of work, because you can get really creative and drive those costs down.

Elliot Gerard:
You got to do one on one. That would be amazing. If you had [crosstalk 00:46:35].

Brian Bosché:
I don't think NBA players would ever agree to that, being filmed.

Elliot Gerard:
Oh my god. The [crosstalk 00:46:40].

Brian Bosché:
I'm surprised they did HORSE.

Elliot Gerard:
I'd like to see those players [crosstalk 00:46:43].

Brian Bosché:
I think because HORSE isn't a true test of how good you are at basketball. It's got to be these little kitschy games.

Elliot Gerard:
Of course. Of course. It's like a Steph Curry game more than anything else. And apparently, he doesn't play defense and he admits that. So maybe [crosstalk 00:46:59].

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, he admits it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I like that they did the 2K tournament, though, with some of the players. That's really something I hope ... Now, everyone has down time. I know once we're back to normal, the down time is less. But I hope some of those things stay because I thought people were interested in it.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And unfortunately, right now, the bar is just so low, and that's why Twitter was just like with the HORSE thing, "This is terrible, but it's live sports and I'm watching it." And I just think you struck at a time where everyone was just so starved for live sports, so it worked at the end of the day.

Elliot Gerard:
For sure.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. People were talking about it. That's for sure. Yeah. Well, we're getting a little bit far in time now and I don't want this to turn into a NBA HORSE podcast at the end. But do you guys have any kind of parting shots, best practices, anything else you want to share? You've been on a lot of podcasts recently. Love it. Anything, any parting shot you'd like to leave the listeners with?

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hope that we'll find the right combination that works for everybody. I, for one, will be using video more when we're back in an office. I think there's certainly opportunities for it, certainly as you're going email for email. And yes, you can pick up the phone, but, hey, do you have a couple minutes? Let's just jump on a video.

Keith Stoeckeler:
So I'm hopeful that we've gone through the hiccups of, "Okay, this is no longer weird. We had to do it for a while. And there are some things that I do like about it and want to continue to do." So that would be my thing, is just let's figure out the right mix.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
And I hope that the empathy continues. I think what's been really great, not only seeing people's homes, are just like, "If I can't make this call or if I'm five minutes late or I dropped unexpectedly, it's got to be some reason because of what's going on at the house."

Brian Bosché:
Yeah.

Keith Stoeckeler:
I hope that that stuff stays as well.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah. Totally agree on the empathy part.

Elliot Gerard:
Yeah, and I think brands being human is something that resonates really strongly now and after all of this because we're going through a travesty right now and we've got to figure out how to navigate that as marketers and as brands together in a way that you don't feel like you're exploiting it, that you're trying to help people out in this, whether it's to entertain them or help them with their charity or anything else.

Elliot Gerard:
But my main thing as a creative is obviously to make someone smile by looking at the work, and I hope I can continue to do that throughout this and afterwards. And being human is more important than anything else as a brand and as a marketer. So we'll just continue to try to do that.

Brian Bosché:
Yeah, that's great. Well, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you coming on.

Keith Stoeckeler:
For sure.

Brian Bosché:
Stay healthy, stay creative, and best of luck with all of your podcast appearances.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Great.

Elliot Gerard:
Thanks for having us, Brian. We appreciate it, man.

Brian Bosché:
Yep.

Keith Stoeckeler:
Thank you, Brian.

Brian Bosché:
Thanks, guys. Bye.

Elliot Gerard:
Bye.